Obscenity/profanity in translations

On another forum, caspertavernello said:

"And what about the obscene words? I saw one request to translate a single word not good to be told here. A friend of mine got this one:
http://www.cucumis.org/translation_1_t/view-the-translation_v_51697.html "

Personally, I think we should not be deleting translations because of obscene words. These words are part of a language, and there is often a legitimate need to know what they mean. On the other hand, there are sometimes pornographic translations posted on Cucumis, and those definitely should be deleted as soon as they're detected. This is abuse of the site and should not be tolerated at all. But a clear distinction needs to be made.

For example, there was a hip-hop song translation request (from English to French) on this site not too long ago. This was a legitimate request from someone who wanted to know what the words meant. The lyrics were not pretty, and in fact they were quite misogynistic, but I still think it was a valid translation request.

I agree, Kafetzou. The request caspertavernello refers to is not nice, but it's not pornographic, it is quite childish, indeed. Anyway, nobody is obliged to translate something he doesn't like. I' m trying to follow this sort of auto-regulation.

One thing is:when one ask to translate a text and doesn't know what it means, I see no problem on doing it.But that URL I put there refered to a joke of a fake jerk user (he never came back to see his translation) just for wasting our time, and it was translated just for earning points.I think this kind of text must be seriously analyzed. Thank you.

How do you know whether he came back to see his translation?

I realise it because he's last visit was in the same day of his first login.

Aha - I get it.

Alright. Out of a swedish point of view. Pornographic texts should not be avoided and there is no legislation that limits pornographic material on the web.

Where should the limit for acceptance be set here at cucumis? What should be considered as pornographic in a text? Is an anathomical description of the groin acceptable? Is an intercourse description too much for the public eye? (Are swedes considered "wasted", due to pornographic exposition, in this kind of matter?)

Wouldn't some kind of cucumis consensus agreement be appropriate in this case?

(I have already recieved very pornograpic content from a cucumis member for translation into norwegian...)

Porfyhr, you wrote :
"Wouldn't some kind of cucumis consensus agreement be appropriate in this case?"
What do you mean? Do you think we would have a derogation to a text of law if we asked for it in a mail addressed to some authority?
Because all what we could decide as admins cannot in any case exceed the frame of the law, that means the "0" risk I told you about.

Yes I agree with you but I am not sure that that it is a general opinion and I think it would be tragic if the webmaster would be punished due to some mistake that someone has done without knowing how to deal with such things.

Yes, you're right when you say it would be tragic if a great site like this one , and JP were in trouble for such a stupid mistake, I hate being a censor in whatever, except maybe for hatred and violent texts intentionnaly put here by some requesters like it was the case a couple of times here, and also for very vulgar and mysoginist porn texts. Here it is about a short text, it isn't even "pussy" that is to "fear" (aha, aha!), it is rather the porn oriented use of it in a site wide opened to minors and also to those whose job is to notify whatever is to be notified to whom it may concern...

Porfyhr, do you find that countries' legislations that tend to protect their minors from exposure to pornography are dumb? We all know what pornography is, as well as we all know what we want our children to know and to see. Please, don't play smart.

Hi

What is considered pornography by one person may seem acceptable to another.

I agree with Porfhyr that it is difficult to set a moral "level" since they are often different following the country or the culture.

The translations I will be the most likely to request will almost surely talk about parts of the anatomy which others might find distasteful. I may need to talk about sexual difficulties linked to such and such a medical condition and the terms and discussions surrounding such problems may well take on a "pornographic" aspect seen from someone else's point of view.

The occidental, judeo-christian point of view on morals is not the only system of values in the world and therefore cannot be used as the yardstick for what is morally acceptable for all.

Those who do not wish to translate a text which contains phrases or ideas that upset or anger them should just choose to leave the translation to someone who is willing to do the translation.

Personally I will probably avoid translating any texts that incite racial hate (which personally I find more than pornographic) but this does not mean that no one else would want to translate such material.

The danger in beginning to censure texts is where you draw the line.

Bises
Tantine

Guilon...

I didn't intend to play smart. I think your last comment is typical for the bad "online behaviour".

I find it very narrow-minded to say that "we all know what pornography is". I think actually that that point of view is the biggest problem. Tantine gives an interesting example in her reply.

As I do not intend to know what is considered "pornographic" or "moralistic" for all different people I still think that it is worth discussing the topic, at least to find out what kind of translations that isn't acceptable for cucumis.

Tantine said:

"Those who do not wish to translate a text which contains phrases or ideas that upset or anger them should just choose to leave the translation to someone who is willing to do the translation."

I agree with this. Personally, I don't find texts offensive if they use very bad words to express anger. Usually, if someone has requested this translation, it's because they've received it and just want to know what it means. We can usually get away with replacing the expletive with @#$%^&* or something like that, and the requester will get the idea.

The other thing is that very graphic expletives are common in some cultures (and some sub-cultures) whereas they are not in others. I think it is not our position to exclude them from the site. For example, if someone wants to know what the lyrics to a Snoop Dogg rap mean, if I find them too distasteful to translate, I can always leave them for someone else to do, as Tantine said.

Hi

Just another point I wish to make.

In Japan, showing bodily hair, in particular, pubic hair, is considered as pornography. Showing a naked, unshaven body is considered as particularly immoral, whereas showing a shaven naked body is perfectly acceptable. (This is probably what made Japanese etchings so fashionable in the late 19th and early 20th century in Europe, at a time where even naked table and chair legs were considered as sufficiently pornographic as to cover them.

What the generation of my parents found scandalously porno, would probably no longer even upset a nun. I can be shocked by what my 16 year old daughter finds acceptable. In other words, morals change not only following the culture that creates them, but also the moment in time at which they become social rules of the society which creates them.

Morals are totally subject to the political, social and financial aspirations of the society (or culture) that sets them up, and as such they obviously differ from one society (or culture) to another.

Our job as translators is not to decide what is and what is not pornography, our job is to translate loyally, from one language to another in order that a translation gives exactly the same tone as the original.

How can you translate the title of a book, a film, a poem that contains a word considered as pornographic in some cultures, if you refuse to translate the word under this pretext?

There would be a whole wagonload of "pornographic" material thrown in the bin in this case, without further ado:

The Holy Bible - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John et al
"Never mind the Bollocks" - The Sex Pistols
The Canterbury Tales - Chaucer
The Kama Sutra ....

Bises
Tantine

About kafetzous last post on the source text:

I think we were going to have to discuss sooner or later.

I think it's later the appropriated now.

The real problem is more legal than moral.

Sorry, Casper, but I don't understand what you're referring to.

Because it looks l you were trying to say that the discussion about pornography could be avoided if they had looked at your first post in there.

We could discuss and take the whole site with that, I think it is useless to discuss about pornography (even if it is nice to share opinions and points of view ), but as casper said, the problem here is more legal than moral, whatever anyone here could say wouldn't change this text of law :

"L’article 227-24 du Code Pénal dispose " Le fait soit de fabriquer, de transporter, de diffuser par quelque moyen que ce soit et quel qu'en soit le support un message à caractère violent ou pornographique ou de nature à porter gravement atteinte à la dignité humaine, soit de faire commerce d'un tel message, est puni de trois ans d'emprisonnement et de 75000 euros d'amende lorsque ce message est susceptible d'être vu ou perçu par un mineur. "

So anyone here would better keep in mind that her/his personal point of view here is to be restricted to what is writen down above. No matter if your personal point of view matches this text or not, the text rules, this is called "law".

And it has to be applied for any text submited here on this site.

About the one which was submitted by a Turkish member in order to be translated into English, French, German and Italian, even if it is only an insult used between men in Turkey, its content has pornographic words, which are publicly featured on the site.

In French, "bouge pas que je te la mette dans la chatte" isn't some insult that men use to say to one another, it has a pornographic meaning.

Personaly I'm not shocked by these words, I've heard much worse things in my life, and as Tantine said, there are much nastier degrading verbal violence that can be said from man to man.

BUT a lawman just doesn't care about the difference between this text and a much nastier verbal (writen) violence featured in a website, as far as he'll be notified it by someone, he will do his job and apply what's writen in this text above.

So, even if, as serba told me in the discussion under the Turkish text, "this is language.and languages cover all part of communication good and bad.you can not pretend bad part is not a part of a language. if we are learner of a language we should learn it well and completely." this site is wide opened to minors, and as it is, NOT ONE text with pornographic content must be publicly read by any minor member here.

I think it is clear enough in its words to be taken in consideration by any expert and/or admin here.

If not, one could submit this text of law to translation into English, German, Italian and Turkish, but also into many other languages, so that it could be posted if people didn't understand the reason why their texts were removed from translation requests.

Doctors in Medecine have got their "ethic", and "serment d'Hypocrate", translators from a site wide opened to minors, according to the law related to these minors, consequently have their ethic led by this legal guideline above, whatever could be her/his personal point of view about what is reasonably translatable or not.

Hi to everyone involved in this discussion

For those of you who were not involved in the discussion of the Turkish source text, here it is.

Francky is totally correct that, although we think of as being somewhere in cyberspace and thus not subject to any country's law, it is in fact hosted in France and thus subject to France's laws. If we are found to be in violation of these laws, we could be shut down.

It also seems quite clear from the law quoted by Francky above that if we translate someone's pornographic text, we may be seen as supporting their bid to distribute pornography ( "... soit le support un message à caractère violent ou pornographique ..." ).

But what constitutes a pornographic message? Is this defined somewhere? Is it pornographic to use expletives (vulgar curse words)? If so, where is the line drawn? Is this spelled out somewhere in the law?

Note: Casper, what I meant with my comment on the Turkish source text page was that the whole discussion of female anatomy could have been avoided, not the whole discussion of what we should or should not allow on this site.