Obscenity/profanity in translations

Kafetzou,

thank you for joining exactly what I've written in every message in this discussion.

WHAT IS PORNOGRAPHY AND WHERE IS THE LIMIT FOR WHAT WE CAN ACCEPT TO TRANSLATE?

My question might be diffusely written but I thought that it was quite clear what I wanted to find an answer to. I will clearly say that this isn't an opposition towards the french law. I just wish to find what is acceptable and not acceptable "porn" out of the cucumis way of view!

About what constitutes a pornographic message, it is told at the link I provided under the litigious Turkish text, and it is said (in French) :

1 – La notion de " message à caractère pornographique "


Le texte ne définissant pas la notion de " message à caractère pornographique ", c’est le juge qui a du préciser cette notion :


La pornographie " ne peut être définie par rapport à une morale religieuse ou philosophique ; la distinction entre ce qui est permis et défendu doit être faite uniquement en fonction de l’état d’évolution des mœurs à une époque définie et dans un lieu déterminé "


" Dans l’arbitrage qui lui incombe, le tribunal doit se référer à l’état de la société contemporaine, plus tolérante aujourd’hui que dans le passé "


" Le propre de l’ouvrage érotique est de glorifier, tout en le décrivant complaisamment, l’instinct amoureux, la " geste " amoureuse, tandis que les œuvres pornographiques, au contraire, privant les rites de l’amour de tout leur contexte sentimental, en décrivent seulement les mécanismes physiologiques et concourent à dépraver les mœurs s’ils en recherchent les déviations avec une prédilection visible. "


On voit donc qu’il n’y a pas de réelle définition du " message à caractère pornographique " tel que l’entend l’article 227-24 du Code Pénal, il s’agira d’une appréciation par le juge au cas par cas, qui prendra en compte le contenu du message diffusé mais aussi le public auquel il s’adresse.

So, as you can see, distinction is done between erotic content and pornographic content.

About "vulgar curse words", I think it rather is mentioned in the paragraph I posted above, in the terms "à caractère violent", because curse is a verbal violence.

As you can also see, it is said that it's up to the lawman to determine wether it is exceeding law or not, when some text is submitted to his (professional) appreciation, and it will be depending of the "audience" for whom such a text can be visible.

It means that a violent and vulgar curse using porn terms like this one featured in a site to which minors can access will surely been pointed out by the lawman, as it exceeds the law in multiple aspects, (a : it is violent-b : it contents porn terms-c : it is visible to minors) and obviously enters the frame of the violation of this law.

This is very interesting, Francky - thank you for posting it! I especially liked the paragraph which makes the distinction between pornography and erotic works.

Here's my translation:

The characteristic of erotic work is to glorify, by describing it pleasingly, the amorous instinct and the amorous "gesture", whereas pornography, on the other hand, depriving the rites of love of all of their sentimental context, describing only the physiological mechanisms and leading to depraved morals, look for deviations with a visible predilection.

As for the part where you concluded that the Turkish source text fit the definition of violence, I'm not sure I agree.

Where does one draw the line between verbal expressions of anger and violence?

Anyway, if we agree that a text like this might possibly break French law, the next question is this: What do we do about it? Should we simply remove all texts like this immediately from the site, or should we censor them, such as by writing something like "Don't show off, or I'll stick it in your @#$%^*!" for this translation (and its source text)?

It would rather be up to JP, who's the webmaster, to answer your question about what is to be done in such a case.(censoring or removing)

About one of your question above : "Where does one draw the line between verbal expressions of anger and violence?", I personaly think verbal expressions of anger addressed to someone in rather insulting terms is a form of verbal violence.

In the above example of the Turkish text, the guy is angry because of someone, and he abuses this "someone" verbally, using porn terms. So he does mean to be verbally violent with the one to whom he is saying that curse.

So if it is not to be violent that saying these kinds of things to someone, what is to be violent?

Hello
If the translator want to know the meaning of a text that is written in a "étrangère" (blackout) language, we can accept the translations requests, sending a message with all the texts, and after deleting all the translation.
If the requester has asked a translation from his nativ language, we can take it in "stand by", ask him the reasons of his request, and if the reasons are good, doing as the first case.
If there are no good reasons, or if the member doesn't reply in 3 days, we can remove the text and banning the user.

I think the case of serba's and Francky's discussion about a translation, is in the third one.

It's ok? I don't know the law, but this is my "point of view"

To Francky: It's interesting that the law you quoted had such a clear definition for pornography, but not for violence.

To Davide: I didn't understand your post. What did you mean with "blackout" language? Also, what did you mean with "the third one"?

I think Davide didn't remember how to say "étrangère" in English, and that's why he typed "blackout".
About "violent" and "pornographic" the text says :

"L’article 227-24 du Code Pénal dispose " Le fait soit de fabriquer, de transporter, de diffuser par quelque moyen que ce soit et quel qu'en soit le support un message à caractère violent ou pornographique ou de nature à porter gravement atteinte à la dignité humaine"

So from my personal point of view, pornography , violence, and also anything which seriously harms human dignity (could be some homophobic, or mysoginist, or racist, or xenophobic texts, movies, or pics, or even words in a forum...)
are here equally described.

But you're right that violation of law with violent messages (texts, movies, pics etc...)isn't developped as much as pornography, this is may be because I found this article of law and its development about pornography only because I did a Google search about pornographic texts, so I'm going to have a search now about violence, same as I did for pornography, and I'll link results of this search here...

I wanted to remind the exact words from the discussion under the text, and I erroneously posted the message there, although it was to be posted here, so that I deleted it there in order to repost it here, and any time it happens (because I'm using boards to type from where I went to have a look at some details I wanted to remind) I'm obliged to add some text to the post that was deleted. It often happens to me...
I posted :

"I didn't really find any other precise text about violent texts on the internet, all I can say about my search is that all I found was very loose, and I think it is quite stupid that it is so loose, because "nul n'est censé ignorer la loi" (no one is supposed to ignore law).

So that I really couldn't positively state anything about violence in texts featured on websites. All I can say about this text of law above, is that it belongs to general dispositions of minors 'protection.

Pornography is much more pointed out by this text, and all I could find about violence mostly talk about some racists, antisemitic and revisionnist websites, about which some countries seem having difficulties to legiferate.

At an European level, it seems that there is an effort for all European countries to be attuned, but it also seems that this will isn't really set on with law statements yet...

All I did about this Turkish text was done because I was feeling as I had to guard against any consequence that could be very umpleasant for the webmaster and the site, according to this text of law.

You're right, kafetzou, when you said I misunderstood serba's post about translators working the same as doctors in medecine, I merged with the text itself when he did that comparition, and that didn't really helped to solve the problem.

And I induced Porfyhr into the same misunderstanding at the same time.

But when serba said : "we are translating like a doctor that he is practicing his job" I thought he was talking about content of the Turkish text specifically, and this is what led me to misunderstand his words..."

Thanks, Francky, for all of this (and for all of the extra time and effort you've put into the search for the "letter of the law" ).

I still don't understand nava91's post, though - what is "langue étrangère" in this context? Does it have a special meaning, other than "foreign language"?

No, I think he wanted to say "foreign language", but didn't find the word "foreign" in English ("blackout" applies -in his own terms-to his memory, I don't even know if it is the right term to say that when there's something, such as a word in a foreign language you can't remind)...

Oh - OK - now I understand. Thanks! I was being dense, I guess.

English for me is a foreign language, Italian nativ language, simply.