dialects or languages?

Hi everyone

I'm wondering why Cucumis has Portuguese and Portuguese Brazilian (shouldn't it be Brazilian Portuguese) as separate languages - I thought they were just different dialects of the same language.

Are there any other languages like this on Cucumis?

It was a demand from many brazilian users of cucumis. I felt it was very important to them so I did it. I would not do it for every language. For example Argentin spanish which was demanded only one time..

The problem is ... should we do this if a language is demanded to split up by many? It's hard to tell dialects and languages apart sometimes.

Thank you, jp - that's what I wanted to know.

there's huge differences between brazilian portuguese and portuguese. We use different words for a lot of things and in many situation the conjugation is different

I was wondering whether Cantonese could be added to the language list? Thanks to Hong Kong there´s quite a nice cultural background behind it and some Cantonese texts/requests may come in. ( I also love Cantonese songs! )

Another language suggestion: Quenya and Sindarin, languages of Tolkien.

Well that sounds fine Cisa (but I know absolutely nothing about Chinese languages ), but I must raise my voice for Nynorsk. There are few texts in Norwegian but for a translator/requestor not familiar with the two different Norwegian languages Bokmål and Nynorsk it can be almost a hopeless task to deal with a Nynorsk translation if it is not clearly indicated when the request is submitted.

It is not only me that do Norwegian translations and I think that it would increase the linguistic quality of Cucumis a bit.

Yes, I can only agree, Porfyhr.

Oh, and there is also Gallego!

There's Guarani also, the second language in Paraguay.

Think Roman Empire and latin, you will understand the relations between Chinese languages. It is a family.

The only difference in fact is, Roma does not exist, but China does.

Well ... Romany is another language we don't have represented - it's the language of the Gypsies, and it comes in at least two forms - Roma and Sinti - both descended from Sanskrit.

I was thinking about guarani and gallego (galician) too.

I think that a little mark on the text saying dialect would be nice.

Sorry, Pluiepoco, but there is nothing about the Roman Empire now. And even if Latin was the official language, see how many languages survived and left even more languages behind themselves! And there was also Vulgar Latin, which was spoken in the streets, by simple people, not by the officials.

Of course, I know that Mandarin is the official language in China (and what a beautiful language!! ),and I´m really happy it is so, but there are many dialects of Chinese spoken by really many people and even if the country is trying to make people speak standard Mandarin to avoid the problems with languages, they are still spoken and it will take much time until people speaking dialects will switch to Mandarin.

It´s a long process, but I must admit that even if languages are controlled, if a language is spoken, there is not much one can do about it. Grammar, pronunciation, vocabulary always change according to the spoken language spontaneously. And this is not for Chinese, but every language, even for Hungarian. For example, some years before we wrote croissant as croissant, but as the word spread and people used it more and more, it was adapted to our spelling and has become ´kroaszan´.

Please, don´t take it against Mandarin, I´m the biggest fan of it , but I was born interested in languages and to me it´s really interesting that these dialects exist and how they are changed, assimilated etc. I know the Chinese Government undertakes many actions to make the whole country speak Mandarin and I can really understand it, the country wants to be ´a whole´ linguistically as well, that´s only natural.

Anyway, it´s nice to know and talk about dialects. In my opinion, every language has been a dialect once.

As to Cantonese, there are high debates among linguists whether it is a separate language or not, but ´taking into count what I´ve heard, read, know about it, the difference in total is so big (different tone system, different character system, different grammar), that I think Cantonese can be gladly considered to be separate language and would deserve a place on the language list, with a flag of that nice flower.

I also like Kafetzou´s idea about Romany languages. I know the two different variations called as Lovary and Beash (but that´s maybe how here they are called.).

Well, I object to the idea of separating Cantonese from Chinese.

Western linguistic knowledge is not applicable in Chinese languages, because we are not based on phonetic alphabet, we are based on Chinese characters, that is to say, if Japanese and vietnamese were written in Chinese characters, we can also deem they are Chinese language.

Hi Pluiepoco

I don´t believe there is Western or Eastern linguistics, actually. Linguistics is just as global as languages.

Every language has a sound system, sciences don´t change according to that. Even if Chinese uses those beautiful characters and has a very complex sound system, it has phonetics, grammar and structure. And languages are usually classified according to those, so I think Japanese is definitely not a Chinese language, it has just only been influenced to great extent by the culture and the language (Sino-Japanese readings), as well as Korean. I admit I don´t know much about Vietnamese, but not every tonal language is Chinese, isn´t it? Then Punjabi and Thai would also be Chinese? Or Malay a Romance language because it uses Latin letters? Or Mongolian Slavic with its Cyrillic alphabet?....

Anyway, let´s close it, I would not want to quarrel with you.

You are assimilated to western ideas, I must say.

Do you know a writting system can change a language?

Think about Russian, and how it was formed, it has many loan words from western languages.

Think if Chinese applied latin, it will certainly loan many words easily from other cultures without rude processing. That is what we cannot bear.

You have phonetic minds, so you can hardly get what I said.

Of course, a writing system changes the language! (But not the whole, its basics, etc.) Usually, the language changes the writing system. E.g. there are more versions of the Cyrillic alphabet, as Mongolian or Kyrghiz required some extra sounds to indicate. And of course Russian has many loanwords, but so do other languages who ´meet´.

*Just my personal opinion: any language can bear any change. The problem is with the speakers, who don´t want the language to change or to be influenced. It´s rather an emotional thing, it happens to everyone (when you don´t want to grow old etc.). E.g. the French want to get rid of the newly come English words, but Mandarin is also being protected by the Government from outer influence or dialects. Please, don´t misunderstand, I´m not really fond of that incredibly big English influence etc., but I just think that languages have always changed, we cannot do anything.*

Oh, sorry, I´m not assimilated to Western ideas, the West is a little further from there where I live. And I can´t imagine how could a mind be phonetic :S

Then do you know there is a small group of Chinese in middle Asia previously under Soviet control, and who use a Cyrillic alphabet, and now it is different from its original language Chinese. It has many Russian, Turkish, Arabic and Persian words. We will not call it Chinese any more, because it does not use characters.

And as to Japanese and Vietnamese, if you know history, you will know Japanese call themselves Chinese, and call their language Chinese. So is vietnamese, and I can surely tell you that most Vietnamese are Chinese.

By the way, Hungary might be the Far East Country to Europe in middle ages, but in nowadays, it is totally European. Think that The Former Soviet Union did not include Hungary?

Hi Pluiepoco,
I have never met any Japanese who would ever call himself Chinese! :S

Actually, Hunagary was never a part of the USSR. Yes, the regime was communist and it was a partner country. It has never been a Far East Country, only East European and stayed that until today. And yes, today it is European in intellectuality, culture as are all the countries in Europe, but that does not mean that European people cannot understand you, your culture and thinking!

Anyway, from my part, this discussion is closed. I do not wish to continue this stupid quarelling.

And I do not wish to be angry with you either. Let´s end this and be nice to each other again, OK?

But in middle ages when the Mongolian armies invaded Hungary, the country was deemed the far east to Europe, was it "Asia" at that time?

Mongol armies stopped at Hungary, because they found there good grassland for stationing their cavalrymen, but at the right time, Genghis khan died of disease, and the Mongol retreated to China Yuan, and his sons and grandsons began to fight each other, and then the Empire fell. So I can guess there is Mongol blood in Hungary.

And I don't want to quarrel too, but claiming Cantonese to be an independant language is politically wrong. You will say it is linguistically right, but sciences are concubines to politics.