Fordítás - Török-Angol - Söylesem tesiri yok. Sussam gönül razı deÄŸil. ...

Hi! I'm evaluating the French version from this text together with turkishmiss, and I'd need to know whether this English version is accurate. As if it is, I've got to edit the French version that was done by Hazal. Could you help?

Thanks a lot!

CC: handyy FIGEN KIRCI

I would say pretty accurate. The word "gonul" is a difficult thing to translate into English. There is no direct equivalent. In addition to what I offered in my attempt, one could use "mind" and "inclination". "Mind" may be OK, but I think "inclination" does not give me the intended meaning in this case.

The couplet here is by the renown poet Fuzuli. Someone else may have translated this already in a more poetic way. I am not a poet. Look around on internet, you may find a previous translation tucked away on a web page.

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzûlî

Ahmet Toprak
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the links! that's great!
But I've got to remove these links and set them on a page that is specially made for this kind of information.

I'll do it only after I opened links at the page I'm talking about!

Thanks again!

Welcome ToprakA!

Hi, Francky!
Because you need it for the evaluation of the French version, it would be better to use the meaning of the second line as verbatim says 'If I were to keep silent, my heart is not willing.'.

Thanks so much dear Figen!

BTW, enjoy your holidays, take care (sorry I just saw your post in "I'll be away for a while" a few minutes ago!)

Hi to all

ToprakA, you used "to be to" verb pattern in your translation, but I guess it is not suitable for this one. Because (as far as I know) it is used to show others' expectations from us (If I were to say it = If I were supposed to say it), but there is not such a situation. Or am I wrong?

Besides, I think the lines show something real in the present/future time rather than something unreal or imaginary in the present/future time. So, the tense used there should be present. I mean, you should have used present simple in both clauses.

And a last thing, "my conscious is not at rest." doesn't seem accurate. Your suggestion in the remarks about translation field "my heart is not willing." is better.

To sum up, I would translate it as follows:

"If I say it, it won't have any effect
If I keep silent, my heart is not willing."

"Were to" does not express "expectation". I am forming here what is termed a "conditional/hypothetical clause".

Also, "if I were supposed to say it" does not sound right to me. "If I was supposed to say it" sounds better, but to me this does not convey the same meaning "if I were to" does.

However, "if I say it ..." would be OK as well, since it also implies a conditional/hypothetical situation, albeit a weak one.


Ahmet Toprak

Hi again Ahmet,

I know you are "forming here what is termed a "conditional/hypothetical clause""; but the point is not to form a conditional sentence, but to form a conditional sentence with the correct structure.

Not "Were to" but "to be to" pattern is used to express either some programmed/scheduled thing (like a concert, film, etc.) or some expectations from us -as I already said above. For example, if I say "I am to go to work early", this shows not that I want to go early but that -for instance- my boss ordered/wanted me to do so.

So this pattern ("to be to" ) is somehow close to "to be supposed to" pattern. That's what I tried to explain before. And I wrote "if I were supposed to say it", for "were" is commonly used for all subjects in conditional sentences.

And, using different tenses in a conditional sentence doesn't make a sentence weak -as you said above- but it only changes the meaning and shows the time.

Hope to become clearer now.

Take a look at the following Tim Hardin song:

If I were a carpenter
And you were a lady,
Would you marry me anyway?
Would you have my baby?

If a tinker were my trade
would you still find me,
Carrying the pots I made,
Following behind me.

Joan Baez, Johnny Cash and numerous other sang it. It has many clauses similar to the one I am using.

Or the song from "Fiddler on the Roof" that starts with "if I were a rich man".

The "to be to" form is not what I am using. If I were using that (surprise, I used it just now!) I would have written down:

As for "I am to say it...", you are absolutely right in saying that this has a different meaning, that it implies "someoneelse's expectations" and in fact perhaps a third party's coercion.

But "I am to say it" and "If I were to say it" are completely different grammatical constructs. The one I used implies a hypothetical situation, in other words I am inplying that Fuzuli has not "expressed it" yet, which seems to me to be the case.

In Turkish "I am to say it" is roughly like saying "soylemem isteniyor", "soylemem gerekiyor".

Ahmet Toprak

P.S.: There is a very comprehensive discussion of similar types of grammatical structures at: http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/GRAMMAR/conditional.htm

-----------------------------------------
"People who work sitting down get paid more than people who work standing up."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

Are you really serious saying "I am to say it" and "If I were to say it" are completely different grammatical constructions." ?

The only difference between them is the time/situation they indicate - but the intended meaning/purpose is the same:

If I am to say it --> söylemem gerekiyorsa (present - real)

If I were to say it --> söylemem gerekirse (present - imaginary)

Please note what I wrote:

- I am to say it
- If I were to say it

are different.

Yes,

- If I am to say it
- If I were to say it

sound similar to me. However, you won't hear the first used for hypotheticals, at least here in California. It may be handled with a different construct in other parts of the English speaking world.

"If I were to say it" does not mean "soylemen gerekirse". "Soyleyecek olsam", or simply , "soylesem" is what I think is the right Turkish equivalent.

Try translating the lyrics I gave earlier to Turkish and see how you would express it in Turkish:

Would you say "bir marangoz olsaydim" or "bir marangoz olmam gerekirse", etc.

Bir marangoz olsaydim
Sen de bir hanimefendi
Benimle yine de evlenir miydin?
Benden bebek yapar miydin?

Tamircilik olsaydi benim ugra$im
Beni yine de bulur muydun?
Yaptigim tencereleri ta$iyarak
Ardimda gider miydin?


Ahmet Toprak

O my! We have been discussing this translation for 6 days, and we still cannot come to a conclusion.

Whatever.. What I don't understand is how you could put "I am to say it" and "If I were to say it" into different categories. Just an "if" (and the tense used) creates a difference between their meanings, but both have something to do with some expectation.

You have said "If I were to say it" means "söyleyecek olsam", or "söylesem". I am afraid you're wrong;

"Söylesem" --> If I said it.

About the the lyrics you gave above... Your translation of the lyrics is, of course, correct. You gave this example to prove that your lines in your translation is OK, but, here you are confusing something: the conditional types used in your translation and in the lyrics are different.

To make the difference clear, let me write down the versions of "being a carpenter" both in the form of the conditional type that is used in the song, and in the form of the conditional type that you used in your translation of Fuzuli's saying:

If I were a carpenter --> Bir marangoz olsaydım

If I were to be a carpenter --> Bir marangoz olmam gerekirse/beklenirse (The meaning could be nonsense, but this sentence cannot be translated in any other way.)

* "If I said it" translates as "soylediysem".

* I am not translating Fuzuli as "if I were to be saying it it" but as "if I were to say it"...

I rest my case. I will not discuss this matter any further. There are two forums on the old usenet where teachers of English and linguists hang out. They don't speak Turkish but they may be help with grammar. I suggest you ask there as well.

Ahmet Toprak

Beside being a graduate student in English language field, I work as an English teacher as well. But, one day, if I needed, I would look at the forums you mentioned.


Well, it's OK, let's stop discussing.

I'll edit and then validate the translation. Enjoy your points..

Please don't forget to use the name of Fuzuli.

Thanks a lot Merdogan!