Married or not

Talking about being married or not, pluiepoco, I know it is maybe shocking for you, but, for example, people in Faroe Islands don't get married so easily. This does not mean they don't stay together or that they are not happy. I know couples who have 4-5 children and they are together for more than 40 years sometimes. My sister-in-law married 8 years ago but she and her husband have been together since they were 16 and they are almost 50 now. On the other hand, there are a lot of people caught in unhappy marriages who stay together "for the sick of the children". What's better than?

P.S. I believe this is one of the countries with many children. The average is 2-3 childen per family to a population of 50000 inhabitants, by the way.
Is having children outside marriage such a bad thing in China?

Wow? This is a really interesting quiestion! I have another one: Is there still a control of birth that a couple can have only one child? And if so, what is the general opinion about this? People would like to have more children or they are content with the situation?

Yes, children without parent(s) are deemed orphan(s) in China, very miserable. and in law, boy and girl cannot have baby(ies) without marriage.
If any such child was borne, the child is wild and discarded by the society.

AFter Chairman Mao, there is a birth control from 1980s, up to now, but it is only practicable to City, but unworkable in rural places, and this phenomenon expands to city life.

that is to say, traditional family size is resurging in China, and go out of family control period. Many urban citizens begin to have more than one child, some even unregistered, because in law, one family (note that we don't allow a couple who is not married) should have one child. The unregistered children will naturally get its identity when growing up from de facto aspect.

According to demography, a sustainable population should allow one family two or more children, one child policy will cause aging problem. China is facing this problem now, that young people have to raise three other people in addition to themselves.

Really, It is the first time that I heard people can have children without marriage. That is deemed wild and sluttery and every bad words for this. But there are still some mothers or fathers who are single, because they have sex before marriage, and give birth to a unwanted child, but after that, the couple just goes apart. We call these parent single parent. But most premarriage babies are aborted artificially because of no marriage.

This does happen, but it is not generally accepted in China. Child without a complete family is deemed unfortunate.

pluiepoco i wonder, what happens to people who do have more children, and what happens to those children?
Btw, if anyone is interested, Margaret Peterson Haddix has a great series of books about an "imaginary" world where a third child is forbidden and about lives of several of them. Very sad but an amazing read.

In early times, the excess children would be fined, for amount of money, and the problem would be solved. Today, this still works. The more children is same as one child, but there have been very antihuman measures towards this. In the early days of family control program, some babies were injected dead after or before birth (especially if its parent(s) did not pay the fine).

As I said, excess children might have no legal identity until they are grown up from de facto aspect. Think people cannot work without capacity when he is adult. Some of these excess children are registered under other family in stead of the family who bears them.

This makes the difference between our cultures: "is deemed wild and sluttery and every bad words for this." Then half of Scandinavia is full of sluttery and rotten, according to your opinion...

I know the communist "moral". I lived 20 years in that kind of regim. Children outside marriage made the mother a slutt, divorced women had no chance in the society because they were "unserious" persons. We did not have disabled people, abortion was forbidden etc. Besides, I come from a society were marriage was more important than anything (even than personal happiness) and where being over 30 and not married was a stain. I still do not consider anything wrong when I hear about pairs who have children and they are not married. This is a false moral, a child is always a bless and a joy and rejecting an innocent soul only for having one parent......God, this is cruel and shocking!

But, again, your culture is different.

PS. I just remember this North Corean coleague of mine (from university) who told us once that only whores do their nails ...

Well, it is traditional and cultural, not communist coloured. Communist theory has no such stipulations.

Korea Japan and Vietnam inherited Chinese culture, it is not a question between right or wrong. It is only cultural, communist cannot change it just as it cannot change the population rule.

I can see that you were from Romania. Yes, in China since the history can record, we are not allowed to have children without marriage. If we are, that is a time before history, like

Confucious was born without father. But it was history. The complete legisltation was set up by Qin Shi Huang (The First Emperor) of China. I can tell you that, before 1949, and in empire times, women who had children without father would be caged like a pig and thrown in to a deep well or a sea, for punishment. And her family would be dishonored by this. AFter all, today's China is more tolerable, as many people support premarriage sex.

and yes, till now, being over thirty and without marriage is not normal, people will regard you different. Is s/he deadily ill? is s/he a homosexuality? Is s/he monk? .....

OK, one more thing and I'll consider the disscussion closed (the topic was different here), you said it is traditional and cultural, not communist coloured. That reminds me about some documentaries (serious ones) done about that famous cultural revolution you had in the 60's (if I am not wrong) and, for example, about a couple who was stoned to death because they dared to fall in love without asking permission from the communist party. And many other stories like that, I don't recall them entirely now.

Romania is also traditional in many points and still the society doesn't reject the children outside marriage. Still, 50 years of communism changed the way how people were thinking. Especially those one born under that regim.

Something wrong being over 30 and not married? Than I am a freak because I married when I was 33. What about not finding the right person? I've never cared about that kind of things and I made the right choice. I found that person who'll remain besides me till the end of my life and that's more important than any prejudice or disregard of the society.

In spite of the whole "argument", in the end, different way of thinking make people and life more interesting. Somehow, I guess, I learnt something more about your society and that was a good experience. Thanks.

Ten years' cultural revolution was true. At that time, party activities intervened personal life. There might be another reason, for love conflicts, so some loser might seek chance to retaliate the winner under the name of communist revolution.

I admit that, industralised China has more and more older age ladies and gentlemen who are unmarried and divorced. We think divorce is a shame anyway.

In China, we say:

If the world is a hell because of rules, please obey its rules and it will become a heaven

Life is a rape, if you cannot refuse, please enjoy.

Please remember the reality.

A couple of English corrections, if I may ...

slutt --> slut
for the sick of --> for the sake of
pairs --> couples

"Life is a rape, if you cannot refuse, please enjoy." What does this mean, pluiepoco? How can anyone enjoy a rape? Isn't the definition of rape that it's done against the will of the person being raped?

By the way, I should say that I'm very impressed with everyone's English - being able to discuss such complex topics without being misunderstood is a quite a feat!

@Kafetzou,
Raped Life is a Chinese saying widespread over Internet. It originated from the words "Violated Will of Public" (Qiang Jian Min Yi) quoted from Chairman Mao and writer Lu Xun's articles. People should live in their own wills, bound by rules (including laws), but some rules are disliked by so many people that, people begin to hate them, so it is a public will of majority violated by some powers of a minority.

But the majority cannot resist this imposition, how could we do? If some guy rapes you (supposing ego were female), and you have no power to refuse, you can only endure it and pain, but in fact the raping sex is no difference with any other kinds of sex, it will give orgasm especially to female, so what can you do when you cannot resist the insult and have to receive such a treatment? We have tried to refuse for many times but failed, and it is a common sense that refuse is useless, and since refuse is impossible, the more you refuse, the unhappier you will feel during this imposed sex, so in order to mitigate your unwilliingness and sufferings, we can do nothing but yell "It is exciting, I love this sex", and try to feel the natural & physiological orgasm! To replace the "sex" word with "life", you will find "Life is exciting, I love life!" But in fact, life is so disregarded. There are many similarities if you can feel:

Can not refuse once you come to the world;
Have to face many unwillingness to and not to do sth;
Life does give happiness, if not void;
Life is totally miserable;
You cannot say you don't love life;
But you really dislike life.

So, it is called raped life.

What a strange idea. I'm guessing that your knowledge of sex has been gained from books.

Yes, but this saying is not made by me. It is wellknown all through Chinese community. So if you know other Chinese, please ask him/her for this saying

I guess you were talking about whether everytime having sex, can female feel orgasm, no, the answer is negative, but at least, sexual pleasure will be felt during rape. And I was told that if a female struggled against rape and failed, she would feel worse. So she could only have two methods:
One is resist and win, the other is fail and enjoy, if not so, she would have to suffer greater pains.

I've moved your messages here...
Pluiepoco, your theory about rape and pleasure is your own (provocative) opinion. Hopefully you understand that not everybody agree.

Ok, first, pluiepoco, you said "We have tried to refuse for many times but failed, and it is a common sense that refuse is useless". Here I have to strongly contradict you. We have tried to refused also a lot in the past - do you have any idea how many people died tortured in the communist prisons or worked to death in the so called "wonders of the communism"? Among them my grandfather, by the way, so I know what I am talking about. How many lives have been completly destroyed? And? It came a day when we said no and it remained no. And it is much better for us now. At least there is no hunger and coldness anymore. Why should I obey to the rules when they made me suffer? I don't rememeber my youth being very happy. I just rememeber the constant hunger, learning to a gas lamp (because we had to spare electricity) or sleeping fully dressed because outside were -20C and inside maybe -10C. Should I continue? No one, but no one, should be forced to accept something like that just because those were the rules. It's called willing to live.

As per your ideas about rape.... Strange is too less said. My best friend in high school comitted suicide because she was rapped by a gang of gipsies when she was 16 (five of them), do you really believe somebody can "enjoy" something like that?

Thanks kafezou for both corrections and appreciations. It's nice to hear that.

As to communism, it is a good dream, and I was born from a peasant family, my grandfather is a communist party member, my father too, but my grandfather died because of poor medical system in rural village. He died of tuberculosis relapse. When grandfather was deadly ill, my father was serving in army. Grandfather saw father a final time before passing.

Even before, my family was still peasants, but in the late Qing Dynasty, some of my ancestors became merchants and sellers and became affluent, but in that times before 1949, there were many wars and riots, my ancestors were kidnapped by groups of bandits for several times, so much money were spent, and the family began to fell. It was lucky, because if the money were not spent, my family would be classified into "landlord" class and would be attacked after 1949. But in all, those are told by my grandmother and father, because I have not seen my grandfather anyway. They say, my family is very "red" and "specialised" (communist words, if you know), and I am certainly very red and specialised, so my father ever wanted me to be another party member, but I am not the person who likes politics. so So...

I don't hate communism, and I began to learn capitalism political economics theory since my first knowledge of words. My father likes reading, even though he does not understand many words, so I came to have some books to read once I was taught to recognize Chinese characters. And all through the education, we learn capitalist economy and politics as well as socialist and communist ones. I think I can be a communist theorist, in stead of a communist party member. In the respect of understanding, I believe I am better than most party members. So I just don't hate communism so much as you.

Maybe two reasons: 1) My family is red; 2) I don't hate communism.

I was born in 1982, and luckily, my village at that time practiced allotment of lands to families separately for several years, and my father also gained a considerable number of renminbi at that time, even though it is small number in today's criterion, but it was at that time, when people were not allowed to seek for personal properties. He found himself hard to join the city life, so he returned home, and gave birth to my two sisters and me (in fact I have another sister who was drown by my father because he disliked girls if too many, you can understand that). the relation line is : My eldest sister --> the sister drown right after birth --> my second elder sister -->me.

From 1982 to 1990s, there were many economic changes, and inflations, my father found he should have stayed in city but he had not. So he wants us to live in city, and leave countryside forever. That is why, he urges us not to live back in hometown forever.

Let me ask you something. You studied what you wanted, what you have believed is interesting? My father did not have this luxury. He was denied from Arhitecture Institute just because he had "unhealthy origins", free translation: "father senator and lawyer before 1945". They lived for years selling furniture and small jewleries of my mother because my grandfather was not allowed to work (by the communists). He had been hunted for years by the communist party just because his family "dared" to be a little bit richer than others and he was, somehow, not suitable for different positions at work. In spite of being a very good engineer.

My mother on the other hand comes from a family of peasants, who were also declared "lanlords" just because they had a little bit of a land (my grand-grandfather had got land because he fought in the first world war and my mother's uncle for fighting in the second world war, so the land was earned with blood and effort, not got for free) and some machines and animals. My mother was close to be kicked out from university because of this and because her uncle was a monk and relligon was forbidden in those times. On the other hand she was also a communist activist till she realized what a waist of time and how wrong all that was.

YOu said that your grandfather died because of the medical system from your village... I lived in the fourth or fifth town as size from Romania and in spite of that, in the last ten years of communism you could not even get aspirin or vitamin C, not talking about penicilin or other antibiotics. I suffered for years of bad infections of the respiratory system because there was no medicine at all. Should I continue?

It is not difficult to see why we believe communism is horrible and COMPLETLY wrong and why it had destroyed my country. Even the idea of communism is maybe well intentioned, it is not applicable and it will never work, especially with the societies which are not so submissive.

I did not want to touch that delicate subject towards the status of girls in China. But, because you opened the discussion, no offence, but the parent who kills his own child should not be called or considered a parent. You can not take an innocent life just because of "tradition and culture". This is not justified by anything.

I am sorry if I am so blunt, but I use to speak my mind and I don't believe can changed that.

You word "dare to" appeared two times, and each time made me laugh happily, you are really humourous from misery. I can understand you totally, because your story is so familiar to me.

And I like dialectics which was taught by my father when I began to know the world. None of my family memers were personally insulted and badly treated after 1949, because we belong to "red" family, and many of us are party members, some after my grandfather grow to be cadres (officials), so I said I am from red family.

That is just one reason I don't dislike communism, and I have not experienced the sufferings caused by communism, in stead, I enjoyed the conveniences brought about by it. I am of this generation after 1982s, and I personally was somewhat spoilt by my family, since I am the youngest and only boy after my father.

My father did "kill" my second elder sister with his own hands around 1979, but it was not illegal at that time, many parents killed their girl(s) because they would like to have boy(s). My father is one who is sinned. But I rarely blame him, if I do, he and many other people will scold me, like this, "your father comes first than you!" or "If your father did not do so, where would you come out?" At times, my mother regrets for that, and would say "It is a pity that your father drowned your sister, if she was alive, she would be very helpful and clever..."

I am frank speaking too, so I don't mind in any way.

I am going out to buy some vegetables to prepare supper, it is 18:15 here. You can reply and I will see you soon.

I am more than aware about the big difference between our "worlds" (if I may say so), in Europe we use to consider Japanese, as an exampe, cruel and later Chinese people too. But this comes exacly from these two different ways of thinking. I wish to believe I am open-minded, even sometimes, some things can be too much. Think we are leaving in a society which punnishes even the people who kill or maim dogs or other animals without a reason and I believe it is fair to be like that. It's christian, some would say.

There are people in Romania who regret communism, because they had relations who permitted them to have a house, a warm working place, food and vacation every year and suddenly, they do not have possiblities anymore. Communism taught some people you can just go through life not doing anything and now these particularly people are not capable to adapt to competition.

I was educated as an engineer. Specialized in Oil Equipment. The first shock I've got being here was not the language, the way the society works or the fact I had to adapt to other field of engineering, it was how people are working here. It is more relaxed when it comes about personal needs, you have maybe more choice when it comes about every day schedule, but you have also great responsabilities. And you have to compete every single second. Something that did not happen back home. Things are changing there now, I can see it and I am glad. Romania is rich country with a lot of poor people living in... This is theresult of so many years of communism. And it should become what it was, because it worth it.