Traditional Chinese webpages

It was a pleasant surprise to see that there is a basic Traditional Chinese webpages But there are so many inexact translations, I think it is better not to put it online at the moment.

also, there is a problem which botheres me from the very beginning. As someone said, there is a difference between writing language 文(letters/characters/..) and spoken langugage (words, expressions..) 語 in "chinese". And as a fact, the word : traditional language is just reflexting the writing language (encoding, for computer related). So.. shoule we just use the corresponding to traditional chinese to name the "language used"? or something else?

The traditional chinese webpages are not turned on. Maybe you saw them while receiveing an email notification because there is bug and I don't check if the langauges are turned on in the urls sent by email. Very few people can see it (I think only you until now).

For your question, I'm not sure to understand the core problem . Reading your explanations, I would use 語 but maybe you think that's not the right choice ?

a easy example will be... at wikipedia,

for the "chinese" (zh) pages, they have separated it in 3 categories : China/Simplified Chinese (zh-cn), Taiwan/Traditional Chinese (zh-tw), and HK-Macao/Traditional Chinese (zh-hk).

As I said before, a separation based only on the "writing" characters is not very accurate, because a language is also the reflect of a culture. And even these 3 languages have a common root (maybe not that common.. depend on everyone's point of view), they are quite different. That's why, I wanted to suggest something else than just "traditional chinese" and "simplified chinese". If "simplified chinese" doesnt (wont) have any ambiguity at what it might implied, "traditional chinese" doesnt reflect exactly the "language" we want to point out, and therefor making it quite confusing (we have a living example here, dont we)

well... I dont see a very big demande on "traditional chinese" translation, so maybe we can put it far later on the "to discuss" list

Chinese as a kind of language is called 汉语, language of Han people, while Han is a huge race. Today, all the world knows that, the national language of China (including Taiwan) is Chinese. Chinese language belongs to Cino-Tibetan Family. It has many dialects, but Mandarin is a standardized one which is officially used by both the People's Republic of China (PRC, we usually say Mainland) or Republic of China (ROC, we usually say Taiwan).

Chinese language has two writting systems, one is used after 1910s, and the other is maintained along the Chinese history.

So, Chinese as a language is in fact one language, of one concept, but as to the writing system, it has two, one is traditional and the other is simplified. Many foreigners would be puzzled and they are always wrong to think Traditional Chinese and Simplified Chinese as two languages, because few of them note the difference.

It's not necessary at all to separate Chinese version into many different sub-versions, such as Macao Chinese, Taiwan Chinese, or HK Chinese, Mainland Chinese, Overseas Chinese.

It's just ridiculous, and misleading to language learners or users.

yes, it is really ridiculous that you just cant recognize the FACT! And yes! you are the "living example" I was referring to!

And you just cant get it do you? How about this, there are french french, canadian french, there are german german and autrichian german, they might have same origin (as your han language for chinese), but there are also different in many aspects. The same thing happened to Chinese-Taiwan and Chinese-China. I just cant get it! is it that difficult to look straight at the FACTS

I wonder, how come Portuguese people never denied that there is a language called : bresilian Portuguese? If I have to follow your logic here, should we also delete the "bresilian Portuguese" as well? I DOUBT IT!

Hi, Josephine!

Firstly, I can read the traditional as easily as the simplified, further, I can write both.

Secondly, I think the difference between them lies in two aspects, one is dialectal, the other is writting. As to dialectal, in fact, it's not true, because both Taiwan and Mainland adopts Mandarin as its official language, so if we talk face to face, we can understand. Let's talk about Chinese dialects: a native Chinese in Harbin speaks in different tones and expressions and vocabularies with a native Chinese in Shanghai. And likewise, a native in Mainland can speak differently with a native in Taiwan. The difference lies in geography. But when we try to unite the tone and expression and vocabulary, we will find that we speak as mostly as the same. So it's our efforts to unite but not to separate. As to writting, I can compare the different fonts of latin writtings, for example, Times New Roman and Book Antique, we can write any latin language in Times New Roman or in Book Antique, the writtings in each font should be deemed as to express the same language, and likewise, Chinese language can be written both in traditional and in simplified characters, which can be deemed as western fonts.

Please don't mix up linguistic concept with alphabetic concept, Greek language can be written in Greek alphabet or in latin alphabet, and any latin language can be written in Times New Roman font or in Book Antique font, that depends on which we would like to choose.

Hello, Whisky!

I have to remind you of the solid fact that:

Taiwan is a province of China, the relation between Taiwan and China is completely different from that between France and Canada, or between U.K. and U.S.A, or between Portugal and Brasil.

Please face to the fact!

so now, who is bringing up the politic? hahaha are you slapping yourself now or what?

Hello, pluiepoco

I have to remind you of the solid fact that:

Taiwan has its own president, its own government, its own territory, its own constitution, its own monetary system, its own passport, its own ambassy, its own language, its own army.

A simplest fact is, if anyone want to go to visit Taiwan, where do they go to apply for the visa? China ambassy?? (hahaha) or Taiwan Consulats?

now you tell me what is THE FACT?

> As to dialectal, in fact, it's not true, because both Taiwan and Mainland adopts Mandarin as its official language, so if we talk face to face, we can understand.

You are just lying to yourself! You are again talking about a language that you have no idea!

Should I put here the list of your errors from your "traditional chinese translations"? Should I remind you how wrong you are when you "assume" that we are using the same "language" and it was just a matter of different writing style?

tell me what is a 起子 for you? and I will give you the exact translation from a Taiwanese!

STOP LYING!

To cite one dialectal phenomenon is not sufficient to justify your opinion that Taiwan Chinese is another Mandarin different from Mainland Chinese.

I can also cite one dialectal fact from my native place,南阳, but is it enough to confirm that I'm speaking non-Chinese?

I have never denied that Chinese in different geographies has not almost the same tones, expressions or vocabularies, what I tried to explain is that, we are trying to uniting the linguistic customs in order to better communicate, but not further separate.

Please everybody, stop the political discussion
This is an endless one. It's useless to talk about it, as we always hear the same arguments from each side.
I suggest that you use private messages if you wish to go on. I really don't want political discussions here.

one? then tell me how many do you need, I am willing to give you a such list!

you just dont get it do you? you just cant admit that you are TOTALLY WRONG when you said it was just difference of writing style, can you? When everyone is telling you that Traditional chinese is different from simplified chinese in the sense that they are the images of different cultures, you just dont want to face to it, do you?

then what is the point here? you are telling us, who are willing to provide a correct translation in traditional chinese not to do so? because, you only dont want to see it here? are you telling us here, and now, that we have to obey to your law? your country's law? and we, as a individual cant have our OWN opinion and do what we want?

who is ridiculous here heim?

Example: patato is called 土豆 in China, but 馬鈴薯.

for people in Taiwan, 土豆 = 花生

so this is the second one.. come on, just tell me how many do you want...

Hello, jp!

Thank you for participation into this linguistic party.

To Whisky as to Territory:

Do you think one foreigner who wants to visit Hong Kong has to apply for visa with Mainland Gov't?

And to Whisky as of dialectal vocabulary:

People at any corner of China can speak differently in Chinese, it's normal.

Can you reply me, please, can I write your traditional articles into simplified characters, without adding or losing something?

this is really really ridiculous.. you just try to change the subject LOL...

are we talking about Taiwan or Hong Kong here?

JP, you are totally right, when it comes to politic, it will become an endless and meaningless discussion, if there is no such thing called "respect to others". And I think I am quite respectful to other's opinion as long as other doesnt come to tell me what to do, and what not to do.

so, maybe pluiepoco can explain to us now, what is the point here? we, as native taiwanese are willing to provide a correct "traditional chinese" translation, and we know clearly (with those examples there) that there is a difference between simplified chinese and traditional chinese (the terms used here are misleading), should we just pretend that there is no such difference? and let the wrong translation be sent to here, just because someone from China is telling us "no, traditional chinese is the same as simplified chinese"??

> Can you reply me, please, can I write your traditional articles into simplified characters, without adding or losing something?

you really have short memory, dont you? already forget those errors you made in your "traditional chinese" translation? And if I recall well, you cant even distinguish the difference from "文件" to "檔案" when you translate "file" to "traditional chinese". Remember it now?

There is a problem here, your posts all start by "You are totally wrong". This is endless. From now, could you please start your posts with

"I admit that you're right on .... but I think that ... "

I think this discussion would be much more intereting and enjoyable for everybody

Translated from the original Chinese posting made on 15 January 2007 01:48

Hi guys...there seems to be lots of landmines lying around here...but arguing without coming to a conclusion is not constructive. Both pluiepoco and whisky are great translators, I have no wish of seeing anyone leave. (If I have any problems over translation in future, I would appreciate being able to turn to both of you for advice...thus, before you leave cucumis permanently, please give me your email address...heehee）

I wrote in Simplified Chinese because that was what I learnt in school. I can recognise Traditional Chinese characters, but I can't write them.

I'm a Singaporean and have the privilege to be receiving information from both Mainland China and Taiwan. Hence I know that even though both regions use Mandarin, the terms used and language habits are often different. I am not talking about the "Taiwan Mandarin" which developed from the influence of dialects in Taiwan, so pluiepoco's example of his dialect in a previous post is not valid in this discussion too.

Mainland China is a large country with a huge population, so it can standardize its language without taking into consideration of what others are doing. (This is the same attitude Malaysians take with Singapore, they treat us like we are their backyard) Of course, as the land where the Chinese language originated, China has the right to standarize Mandarin in whatever way it wishes.

But before the iron curtain lifted from Mainland China, who were the ones standarizing the Mandarin language for the rest of the world? Everyone chipped in to fill in the gap of the leadership Mainland China should have taken. For the past few decades since Mainland China opened its doors to the world, information is flowing out continuously and everyone is learning to get used to the language habits of Mainland China. This is exactly what is happening here in Singapore as we try to adhere to Mainland China's standardization when we are standarizing Mandarin (Singapore). However, language habits as with all other habits, are hard to break. Hence after so many years of trying to adhere to Mainland China's standardization, our Mandarin still resembles Taiwan's more than it does Mainland China's.

Microsoft has recognised that Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese are different. Hence the Simplified Chinese version and Traditional Chinese version of Windows are not a transcoding of each other. For example；“computer，default，file” in Simplified Chinese is “计算机，默认，文件”(machine that computes, silent consent, document) and in Traditional Chinese is “电脑，预设，档案”(electronic brain, preset, record).

Hence whisky's suggestion of treating Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese as if they are different languages is not unreasonable. The unification of Simplified and Traditional Chinese will inevitably happen with the constant flow of information and communication within the Chinese world. But this unification has not happen yet and to force an unification now is just making lives difficult for everyone involved.

samanthalee说得没错，还有n多文章待译，不管对此的争论有没有所谓，都停下吧，因为看这势头，不会有所以然的结果出现。而且双方越说越火大，jp通知我们这些人就是来调节平息此事的。