번역 - Cum angelo loqui (라틴어)

Hi dear German experts!

Could you help me here and make a bridge? Thanks!

CC: iamfromaustria nevena-77 italo07

Bridge by a requester:

In English
“Soon, I’ll want to speak with the angel,
Were he to recognize my eyes.”
[or: Whether he is to recognize my eyes.]

and in French
« Bientôt, je voudrai parler avec l'ange,
Pour savoir s'il reconnaît mes yeux. »

Lev, according to Latin version by Alex, the text starts with: "As soon as possible/ As quickly as possible" (Quam celerrime)...

Does it square with the source?

I do not know if this makes a difference, but I translated from the Catalan text (far more simple for me to understand)...

Hello Aneta and Alex!!

No, no... Not "as soon as possible" !
Ben aviat = Bientôt = Soon. "Nächstens" means strictly this. (Ben/bien, in Catalan and in French, is a dummy word )

Thanks a lot for your interest, my friends!

Lev

... Regarding etymology, "Näcthstens" would equal “nextly” , should this term exist; and does not Let’s say that “promptly” is a nice synonym.

Ah, I see! So "celeriter" is enough, I believe. Isn't it Aneta?

Thanks for your explanation Lev

We'd better wait for our German experts opinion, if you don't mind, Lev.

No, Aneta.
Of course, I do not mind Just wait and see.
(Nevertheless, you will need perhaps a very special German expert; because Rilke liked a lot to play with his own language... You will need a poet. And an expert in Rilke; which are scarce )

Have a good night, you and Alex!

Have a good night you too Lev

... Welcome from Sweden, Alex!
A pleasure to meet you again

I believe our experts will manage, Lev...



CC: italo07 iamfromaustria nevena-77

Most probably they will, Aneta... But you asked about the meaning of "Nächstens", and I told it to you clearly -and immediately-. Then you reply that you will ask the German experts, as if you did not rely on me...
Of course, I do not know Latin –and for this reason I requested this particular translation--, but I am a little bit acquainted with Rilke's work.
And I do know what ""Nächstens" means.

All right, dear. I do trust you.
I just wanted to have more opinions since I knew the text was not an easy one. More opinions=better translation.

Anyway, German experts seem to be unavailable...

I have one more doubt.
Alex has translated "volo cum angelo loqui" (I want to speak with an/the angel). Meanwile you suggested the future tense in your bridge:"I’ll want to speak with the angel"...?

Alex, "Nächstens"--> "Mox", ok?

Sorry to pop in here. I'm no native but do understand German. Lev is right here: "Nächstens" means "soon". And it is in future tense too.

My bridge, which I know, can't be accepted - I only give my opinion is very, very close to Lev's one:
"Soon I will speak with/to the angel, whether he recognizes my eyes".
What do you think, Lev.

Mox

Again, I made this translation on the basis of the Catalan version. I can see that the two versions are a bit different, but my guess is that the translator for Catalan tried to render the text more natural by changing things a bit... So let's just concentrate on the meaning and let's try to find a nice form to translate it in Latin

Hello, gamine,

You are welcome here! And I have to say that your translation is literally perfect. The issue about those verses lies in the sense which the poet wanted to give them, and which they acquire when considering the whole poem. Moreover, he translated in person the second verse (and only this one, as far as we know) into French as I've written above: "Pour savoir s'il reconnaît mes yeux". (He did so in a letter to a friend –and lover-- of him. A couple of lines above, he wrote as well: “Au sujet de mon rendez-vous avec l’Ange…" )

So, there is a certain ellipsis in the German text; even if Rilke succinctly says "Ob er meine Augen anerkennt", he WANTS to know if the Angel will recognize his eyes... Thus, I understand that this very same Will is also implicit in the first verse; and for this reason I translate "I'll want to" instead of just "I will".
An additional problem springs from the absence here of the third and fourth verses which complete the stanza, making the sense more clear. (I posted them in a separate request --along with my Catalan version--, but I copy them here now for you:

„Wenn er plötzlich fragte: Schaust du Eden?
Und ich müsste sagen: Eden brennt.“

Rilke never published this poem (and did not give it a title, as he used to do, and, in fact, almost always did). He wrote it in a page of the private diary of this friend I’ve told you above. Then, after Rilke’s death, in a book of memoirs, she published the poem, adding as well a French version by her own hand which is manifestly wrong in several points (except, of course, in the only verse the precise sense of which Rilke himself explained to her).

@Alex:

I didn’t know that you based your Latin translation on the Catalan text… Had I known this, I would have given you some of the indications I’m giving now.
Anyway, the Catalan version by me has the verb in the future tense, exactly as the original : ”voldré” (the present would be: “vull”…)


@Aneta:

I’m sorry for all this “poetical fuss”, Aneta. Maybe you’ll be regretting now to have accepted to evaluate this text (and damning my bones, as well as Rilke’s…
Nevertheless, I’ve to say kindly in my defence that great part of the "guilt" comes from Alex’s hasty (or a bit hasty) translation
(No offence intended, dear Alex; I’m really grateful for your interest !)

Don't worry, Lev. I'm not afraid of poetry. I used to write my own poems (some of them were already translated into English on Cucumis, some even into Italian and French ). So, I know how confusing poetic verses can be and that's why I'm so careful when evaluating your text.

I think I already know how it should be translated into Latin. Give me a minute, pls.

The first verse in Latin literally means:
Soon I'd like to speak with an/the angel

Hope you are satisfied with it, dear Lev

Many thanks indeed, Aneta !
You have employed yourself busily in this translation; as a poet would do
(And, regarding your own work, I ignore Polish, but I’ll read gladly these translations to English, French and Italian you tell me about. I promise.)

Now, according to the English bridge that you provide, the first verse seems OK to me.
About the second, and taking into account that Rilke does not use explicitly the verb “to know” in the original, I presume that it could be possible to use another Latin verb (meaning something like “to see” or “to notice” or “to perceive”) to elude the redundancy: “cognoscam vs. agnoscat” that Alex himself remarked in his previous translation…. Could it be “sciam” a suitable term instead of “cognoscam”, as he suggested?