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| | 19 juni 2009 12:39 |
| | Wouldn't it rather be :
Nec ante uixeras quam aliquid...
As regards tenses, this construction with ante/quam is pretty difficult, and I'm not sure whether pluperfect and perfect is right. My 'Latin feeling' would be putting the whole sentence in future:
Nec ante uiues quam aliquid inueneris (fut perf)...
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| | 19 juni 2009 16:02 |
| | "Nec ante uiues quam aliquid inueneris (fut perf)..."
Dear chronotribe.
I would translate your version this way:
You won't be living until you find...
Look: the source deals with past tense, not future. |
| | 19 juni 2009 20:58 |
| | The sentence from my dictionary:
"nec antequam vires deerant, expugnati sunt"
-They were not defeated, until they got weak (Livius?)
You can compare now
I've corrected my translation a bit.Pluperfect was not right here as you thought.
I agree it's especially difficult construction, but we can cope with it, I believe.
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| | 21 juni 2009 18:36 |
| | Actually I've used the future 'on purpose', so as to translate a past sentence, because I doubt it could be literally translated:
'You have not lived before you have found something to to die for' deals (as regards its meaning) with future. In French we could turn it this way (in past tense) but in Latin, I think we must do according to the meaning (just feeling, I know, but I haven't found any exempla with a similar meaning in past tenses, whereas I've found some in future).
I've got to leave right now (very busy these days!), but I'll send you some others comments in a while... |
| | 21 juni 2009 22:05 |
| | Hm. Present Perfect in English is connected with past, says about finished activities, but ok. Maybe I am wrong
If it should be in future, how about 'Nec antequam aliquid morte dignum inveneris, vives'? |
| | 22 juni 2009 21:01 |
| | Of course it is presented as finished activities, but all I wanted to say (I haven't been very clear I know) is that 'You have not lived before you have found something to die for' does not have to do with past (mainly as regards its meaning, of course not exactly in a grammatical point of view) in a same way as, for instance, 'You hadn't opened the door before you found the keys' or even 'You haven't taken the keys, so you can't open the door'. In fact I'm neither an English speaker (as you know it well) nor a specialist in linguistics, so that my opinions are to some extent uncertain and can't be guaranteed.
Anyway, the more I think about this, the less certain I get. I realize I wasn't accurate enough when I said the sentence 'deals with future'. It isn't really the point. As a matter of fact, does this sentence (as regards its meaning, I insist on it) deal with a specific temporality? Just as 'you' in this sentence doesn't really mean 'you' (it's an indefinite second person, meaning 'one' or 'anyone'), 'to live' doesn't really mean 'to live' in the literal sense of the word, but 'to live one's life to the full'; so I think verbal processes that are expressed in this sentence do not refer to a specific temporality (past, present, or future) but have to be understood as in a indefinite time, as well as timeless actions in the gnomic/omnitemporal present tense.
Indeed, is there any difference of meaning between 'You have not lived before you have found something to die for', 'You won't live before you'll have found something to die for' or 'you don't live before you have found something, etc.'?
If you agree with me on that (to put it briefly: it's a gnomic sentence), then we can go forward to this other question: how must we properly render its meaning in Latin?
Regarding this question, I would answer that past tenses don't seem to be suitable, according to exempla I've found...
I think 'Nec antequam aliquid morte dignum inveneris, vives' is right, whereas 'Nec antequam aliquid morte dignum invenisti, vivebas' isn't, because in this way, it can't be understood as a gnomic sentence (timeless), but only as a real process in the past. (Moreover, I doubt 'inuenisti' could work here like 'deerant' (= were coming to be deficient.)
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| | 22 juni 2009 21:22 |
| | You're right chronotribe. It is a gnomic and timeless sentence indeed like most of proverbial sentences are. Thanks for drawing my attention to this issue. Don't be so modest! You're Latin specialist indeed. For me for sure
Anyway, I'm glad that the second proposition of mine you've accepted. I've already edited the translation. |
| | 22 juni 2009 21:40 |
| | Hi chronotribe, Hi Aneta
If I may give my two cents...the correct version in English should be:
"You won't have lived before you find something to die for" |
| | 22 juni 2009 21:58 |
| | And now all is clear! Thanks a lot, Lilly! Chronotribe thought just in this way about this sentence. His speculations were going in this right ditrection. Smart man!
My translation reflects your English version, I think. |
| | 24 juni 2009 00:56 |
| | Good news Language is a great puzzle!
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| | 24 juni 2009 01:01 |
| | Yes, it is indeed! Unbelievable! |